Please Note: Transcript partially generated by artificial intelligence and may contain inaccuracies.
Bethany Denton 0:07
From the independent producer project of KCRW, this is Here Be Monsters.
Marlo Mack 0:16 (narrating)
I think I'm going to try just talking into the microphone every once in a while to see what comes out. Today took my kiddo to a park how these water fountains spraying and kids running around screaming when we were changing into her bathing suit in the park restroom, she said someone just looked under the stall and she was so upset and I said well, it was probably just a little kid and she was really not happy about it. That someone could have seen her privates. And then after she did her playing in the water, we went back to change back into her clothes in the same stall. I don't think there was anyone else in the bathroom, but she insisted on keeping her long swimming shirt on and pulled down over her bottom until she could get some shorts and underpants on to cover things up. So we're definitely in deep stealth mode. Maybe that's why she likes spies and ninjas so much right now.
Because they sneak around and they get to decide who sees them. My mom noticed that she was tucking in her…tucking her penis back between her legs when she was getting dressed. I didn't notice. But grandma did. She told me so I asked my daughter about it.
Marlo Mack 2:00
So I noticed that lately.
Daughter 2:05
Yeah?
Marlo Mack 2:06
I noticed that lately. Sometimes when you're like getting dressed, you're kinda like tucking your penis in between your legs.
Daughter 2:16
I don't like it.
Marlo Mack 2:19
okay, you don't like your penis?
She said "I just don't like my penis mom. I just don't like it". And I said "why?" And she said "Because I'm a girl. I want a vagina."
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Jeff Emtman 2:47
Here Be Monsters the podcast about:
Marlo Mack 2:50
about why is Darth Vader mean?
Jeff Emtman 2:53
the podcast about the unknown.
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Marlo Mack 3:21 (narrating)
So here's the background part. My kiddo was seven years old. When she was born, she she appeared to have all the parts you'd expect. On a boy.
Daughter 3:36
So, when I was little, my mom didn’t know I was a girl and I didn't like that. I wanted to be a girl. I liked to wear dresses and I liked my little pony. And I liked fairies.
Marlo Mack 4:03 (narrating)
As soon as she could crawl, she crawled toward the princesses and as soon as she could talk she begged me to buy her dresses and pretty soon after that. She told me that something had gone wrong in my tummy. That made her come out as a boy instead of a girl and she wanted me to put her back in my tummy. So she could come out again as a baby girl. And she was not even four when she said that to me. And ever since then. She's held fast to that, to that message. This absolutely rock solid assertion. Day in day out, year in year out, that she is a girl.
Marlo Mack 4:45
Come on, let's get some breakfast and get to camp. Camp camp camp, get your bathing suit, your sunscreen.
Marlo Mack 5:00 (narrating)
So it's Monday morning. It's a beautiful sunny summer day. And my daughter is going to a new summer camp this morning. We've never been there before. I was registering her last night. They wanted to know on the registration male or female. So I clicked female. And of course now I'm wondering should I tell them? Could that avert potential disaster or do I just trust that if it comes up, she'll handle it.
Marlo Mack 5:46
There's one thing I had to ask you about, okay, so you go into a new camp. We don't know anybody there yet. They sound really nice. But I'm wondering, do you want me to tell one of the teachers there that you're a girl with a penis just in case somebody? And just in case you need some help or some kid asks you that? I mean, I'm sure I don't think anyone's going to notice but it's just Do you want me to tell anybody in case you need help?
Daughter 6:14
No! No!
Marlo Mack 6:20
I won't. Okay, okay.
I didn't tell anybody. When I signed you up, I just said my daughter is coming. She's six years old. She's a girl.
I didn't tell anybody. Because it's up to you to tell people if you want and I don't think anyone's gonna notice because you're very private about your body. And it's up to you. Who knows? Do you need a tissue honey? But it sounds like you do not want me to tell the teacher your decision.
Marlo Mack 7:25 (narrating)
We’re going into what they call “stealth mode”. Sounds so military. It sounds really serious stuff. I guess it is serious. You can still get fired for being transgender. You can still get killed for being transgender. Probably not at summer camp today. But managing a secret is not fun.
Marlo Mack 7:50
Let's go. Let's get your clothes on and go to camp [kissing sound, laughing]. Alright, let's go! It's gonna be so fun.
Marlo Mack 8:25
Let's go find your oh, let's go over here. Good Morning!
Unidentified Voice 8:27
Good Morning. So could I get your first day picture?
Marlo Mack 8:30
First day picture. Okay
Unidentified Voice 8:35
You could stand right there and look at the camera. Big smile, oh that’s great. Love it
Marlo Mack 9:00 (narrating)
When Laverne Cox was on the cover of Time magazine, I showed her the picture and I said look at this. Look at this beautiful, smart, famous lady that everyone loves. She's also transgender. She's like you, she’s on the cover of a magazine that everybody in all of America is looking at. There's nothing wrong with you. You're special.
So, her new best friend in the world is a little girl who lives a block away from our house. The girls were having a playdate last weekend. It was a beautiful warm, sunny day and they wanted to go run around in the sprinkler. So I fished out some swimsuits for them. And the next thing I know they're heading into the bathroom together to change, kind of raise my eyebrows and looked at my daughter and kind of checking in with her. She said “Oh Mom It's okay. She's already seen my privates.” And her friend just stood there like, “We're good.” And they went into the bathroom, changed into their swimsuits and ran out into the sun to play.
Marlo Mack 10:25
Hey sweetheart. So she already knew that you were transgender. How did she know?
Daughter 10:30
Told her.
Marlo Mack 10:35
You told her? When did you tell her?
Daughter 10:40
I trusted her.
Marlo Mack 10:40
You trusted her? How’d it come up?
Daughter 10:47
I just kind of did one day. I sad “I’m transgender, do you know what that means?” Explained it to her.
Marlo Mack 10:52
She was okay with it? How did you explain it?
Daughter 10:58
I just did. How I explain it to everyone. Okay, she was just like, all right.
Marlo Mack 11:05
Did you explain to her about privacy?
Daughter 11:09
Yes, I told her, “Please don’t tell anyone else.”
Marlo Mack 11:12
Okay. All right. Well, I'm really glad you have a friend that you trust. She's a good friend.
Marlo Mack 11:20 (narrating)
This conversation where she told her friend that she's transgender had happened weeks prior. And I called up her mother and told her I said Your daughter has known this for a while. But my daughter told her it's private. So she didn't even tell you, did she? I mean, she didn't even tell her own parents. said Your daughter is…she's a good friend. It makes me think we don't give our kids enough credit. A lot of adults I've met can't keep their mouth shut when it comes to this. And yet, I think the seven year olds, I think they know what privacy means and trust and friendship. She certainly has one good friend in her corner
Marlo Mack 12:15
What's your favorite thing about being transgender?
Daughter 12:20
My favorite about being transgender is that I’m myself now. When you’re transgender, you’re more yourself.
Marlo Mack 12:32
What's the hardest thing about being transgender?
Daughter 12:37
It’s kind of hard because so many people might forget tha it's kept private. Tell other people that not everybody will know. And people might tease you
Marlo Mack 12:51
Might.
Daughter 12:53
And some people might just ask questions.
Marlo Mack 12:56
Good people won't tease you. Yeah,
Daughter 12:59
They'll just ask questions or nothing.
Marlo Mack 13:01
Right. Have you ever been teased?
Daughter 13:05
No.
Marlo Mack 13:05
What would you do if someone tasty for being transgender?
Daughter 13:09
I don't know.
Marlo Mack 13:15 (narrating)
I can't pretend that everyone in the world is going to support her that gotta prepare her for the people who won't. She can't stay in innocence forever. I want to help her prepare. For those people she will inevitably encounter.
I can't tell her it's not gonna happen. I have to say, “yeah, it might. And we're going to figure it out.” I'm just going to tell her “We're not going to have a 100% success rate here. Some people are gonna find out. And some of them are gonna want to understand some people are jerks. They're just like Darth Vader. They're too sad and angry to be nice.”
I'll never forget that when she was four or five. She watched a little bit of Star Wars. She said “Why is Darth Vader mean? Why is he evil?” It was beyond her conception that someone might just be bad. There had to be a reason. She couldn't understand why there would be evil, because she'd never really seen it which is a wonderful thing. So I told her that people are bad because they're feeling bad. Something bad happened to them in the past. And they're feeling really rotten. And so they're acting like Darth Vader. That's why people act bad. Which I think is true.
Marlo Mack 15:00
So if someone asked you, “What does that mean to be transgender for you?” What would you say?
Daughter 15:11
If you were born and your mom dad thought you're a boy, but in your heart and when you go up and you and you could talk to him tell them and you wanted to be a girl. Like let's say this that you're a boy because you had a penis, but you felt like a girl and so for example, a girl with a penis would be transgender. Or a boy with a vagina.
Marlo Mack 15:39
What do you think it's gonna be like to be a grown up transgender woman?
Daughter 15:40
Special.
Marlo Mack 15:40
Why?
Daughter 15:45
I don't know.
Marlo Mack 15:45
Do you think you would ever change your mind? Want to be a boy?
Daughter 15:56
No, I just want to be a girl who likes ninjas “hyah, hyah!” [laughs]
Marlo Mack 16:15 (narrating)
She remembers being told that there was something wrong with her. Nobody ever put it that way. But she was told for the first four years of her life that she was a boy. And she had to fight and fight and fight to convince me and everyone else that she was a girl. So I guess the early message was there's something wrong with you. There's something weird here. There's something that even your own mother doesn't understand. If your own mother doesn't understand who you are, then how can you trust that the rest of the world will get it?
It's like I'm always trying to think ahead, and I'm never quite able to. What's lurking around the corner that's gonna surprise us and hurt her? What can I prevent from happening by telling her that her pants are too tight or telling other parents not to tell their kids? I know I can't protect her from everything. But I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect her from most of it so that I'm the one feeling the heartbreak and not her.
Daughter 17:39
Do you have any other questions?
Marlo Mack 17:40
Is there anything that you want me to do differently to help you out? Or am I doing okay?
Daughter 17:45
You’re doing really fine, Mom.
Marlo Mack 17:50
I love you.
Daughter 17:55
You too.
Daughter 18:00
[singing from Disney’s Frozen] ………the one’s controlled me, can’t get to me at all. Time to feel what I can do, [unintelligible]...you don’t need to let them know…but now they know!!! Let it go, let it go, run with the wind and skies. Let it go, let go, you’ll never see me cry. Here I stand and here I stay, let the storm rage on….cold never bothered me anyways.
Jeff Emtman 18:54
This episode of Here Be Monsters was produced by someone who wants to be called Marlo Mack. Marlo Mack is not her real name. She's choosing to keep her and her daughter's identity secret until her daughter's a bit older, old enough to decide for herself if she wants to share her identity or not. Marlo Mack has her own podcast that follows her daughter's journey through a transgender childhood. It's called How to be a girl. How To Be A Girl as part of The Heard which is a new podcast collective. Marlo is also the writer behind Gender Mom, a blog about daily life with a transgender daughter. You can find links to How To Be A Girl, The Heard, and Gender Mom on our website, which is HBMpodcast.com. Also on our website, you'll find portraits drawn by Marlo's daughter with long blonde hair and pink dresses. You'll also find a picture of a meeting between Marlo's daughter and actress and activist Laverne Cox. If you are a transgender child or the parent of one, we have a small set of resources up on our website. Again, we're HBM podcast.com This episode was edited by me, Jeff Emtman, along with help from Bethany Denton and Nick White, who is our editor at KCRW. And if you're enjoying our shows, please tell your friends word of mouth is how we grow. Here Be Monsters is a production of the independent producer project that KCRW. Music in this episode came from The Black Spot. Thanks for listening, More episodes soon.
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